Alright, here's what I'd like to understand from this post, as the fact that it was more or less directed at one of mine confused me as to the extent of our divergence, since I, well, agree with its ideas (although perhaps only in the way that I conceive them):

1. Does it imply a wholesale rejection of the TE, with everyone in it, except the few 'chosen ones' who are in the process of hacking out? The picture looks pretty black & white to me and in my view would deprive almost everyone from any human contact not mediated by a computer beyond survival needs if they decided to interact only with those who value entelechy. I don't believe that's what you mean.

2. When you say there's no place to go to, do you exclude sports courts, pubs and friends' houses where you would throw parties together? Again, I don't believe that's what you mean, but perhaps you're extremely selective with regard to the people you have fun with. If the people are fun, even if they don't prioritize intelligence otherwise, I'll be happy to be in their company (at least) in those contexts.

3. Subsequently, you claim we must create the place for that. I agree. But what is advisable for a newbie who can't? Should he abstain from going to regular parties where he feels good at - let's assume he does - because there's no one there who seeks intelligence as their greatest priority? Are his only choices, if he wants to overcome social anxiety or improve his social life, in the majority of cases when there's no one around who shares his core worldview and ethics, to communicate with neurohackers online or move to a Homeworld Embassy?

4. The most controversial point I made was that certain cities have better human environments than others. Even if the ultimate goal is to achieve autonomy in its broadest sense, newbies, and I include myself among them, often need a place where they feel safe and loved to thrive, even if by ideal NH standards it would be considered a sub-optimal environment (what wouldn't, though?). I have a few acquaintances whose happiness was dramatically - and predictably, considering their preferences - affected by the place they moved to, one way or another.

Lastly, I'd like to know your thoughts on how should a newbie go about developing congruence with values that conflict with those he spent a lifetime being fed by the misery perpetuation system. This is extremely important because the internal conflicts that are bound to happen when one starts neurohacking can be paralyzing, weaken longstanding coping mechanisms and, of course, cause anxiety.

My best solution for this so far is to move somewhere and create a new life from scratch, leaving behind your old vices and the people who will try to keep you within their expectations. While not perfect, it gives an effective initial boost to growth. We can discuss the problems associated with that if you'd like.

Hey, Scal!

I found the key in the same sentence, with the catch you also point out:


"and their meaning for you is going to evolve along your spacetime-bound "in-context" neurohacking practice."

That led me to ask those questions.

Hey, empathia,

alex's last post in your thread left me concerned that I might have given you bad advice - I have to say it worked for me -, hence my answer to him here. But when in doubt, listen to the most intelligent people.

Hi dudes,

Very Long mail, get coffee.

Wow there are so many questions raised by these questions!

Re: 1 (a) What do each of us mean when we say 'the TE'? I mean “everything for which I've seen proof that it destroys or leads to the destruction of intelligence or the process of its emergence”, in short, anything harmful to intelligence.
'anything' includes some of all of the following: physical objects, types of behavior, modes of body chemistry, abstract constructs, false information and action/reaction outputs.

My colloquial word for all that desroys intelligence is 'shit', because all harmful things should be thought of by healthy mammals as disgusting and dangerous, and should raise the emotions of disgust and alarm, so the nickname 'Toilet Empire' seems particularly apt (because that's where you find shit, right?)  :  )

Another possible description is “Anything that Rock&Roll wants to stick it to” LOL  :  )  because a lot of us are aware unconsciously of what is shit long before we see the cognitive information that gives us technical scientific proof that it is shit. Most kids in a western societal context except for the morbidly insecure know that school is shit from the moment they are told to sit still and pay attention to this work when their whole biology is driving them to move about and play with reality.

(b) What do you mean by 'chosen ones'? Afaik there is no such thing -creatures have to choose how to live their lives themselves.
To clarify: nobody is expected to interact ONLY with those who value entelechy. What I am saying is we will not fulfil our maximum potential unless we do so at least some of the time.

If we never do that, we are like a classical musician who can develop their ability to a great peak but will never be a master until they have had the experience of playing with an orchestra. We need to play with the orchestra as wll as by ourselves in order to fully develop. We need to have sex with other people as well as by ourselves in order to fully experience and fully develop. And we need intelligent interaction with those who prioritize entelechy in just the same way.

Important to note the difference between prioritisation and exclusion here! All sorts of other interactions will go on throughout our lives with many who do not even know what intelligence is, just as a musician has friends who may be tone deaf or who don't like music.
I have lots of friends firmly stuck in the TE and we all have to decide where to draw the line -I don't hang out with terminally dull, pessimistic, prejudiced or aggressive people, others may choose to avoid people with dogs, hard drugs, or anyone with criminal convictions; we all have to decide for ourselves what is harmful to us personally because we all live in different contexts, right? Our rules for who we hang out with will adapt depending on who we are, where we are, what we're doing and what we learn.
Where I live, and with the people I hang out with, for example, it is best to avoid pubs because there are lots of fights, loud soap opera television, loud gambling machines and they won't let us smoke. But maybe pubs where you live are really great.

Re: 2  When I say there's no place to go, I mean there's no place to go to interact with large numbers of people who prioritize entelechy. There's no orchestra. We are all like individual musicians with no band. We can practice and practice but we need to play together with others to excel.
Think of some of the great things you can achieve working with others, now imagine what you could achieve working with others who want to develop themselves to optimal and play with each other to get there. Imagine a place where there's a bunch of intelligent people with no hassle, no coercion, all needs provided, being creative in everything they do.

Re: 3  This is a resource we don't have, and I am saying it is possible to create it, if we want to. Why not build a matrix where intelligence can flourish, if we can? I think it would be especially useful to those just starting out in NH who have been in a crappy environment. I'm working on the basis that it's the opposite if the Milgram experiment. You put people in a degrading  environment with anxious, aggressive people, their behavior degrades. You put them in an optimal environment with others of their kind, using the core conditions, they flourish. Milgram's experiment worked; why shouldn't mine?  :  )
Part of that scene involves interacting with the rest of humanity in whatever ways you want to, from core conditions. Its best to learn all kinds of interactions with all kinds of people, so there's no exclusion apart from what you decide is helping or harming you, so no abstaining from parties!  :  ) ...Except maybe those ones where people cover each other in yogurt and lick it off...if you don't like yogurt.

Incidentally though, there is no such thing as 'a newbie who can't'. If I'm convinced that someone takes their NH as seriously as I do and displays tenacity (long term ongoing interest), they are welcome to stay here and work with me as long as they retain that interest. If I am convinced enough by their communication I will even arrange for them to get here. There are no closed doors.

Re: 4 I have never met a city that didn't have good bits and shitty bits. The location of the shitty bits is what gives a city its overall vibe. But cities are one tiny example of an environment. Most of the planet doesn't have cities on it.
Of course cities smell, are bad for the lungs, have noise pollution, etc etc, but if you're a happy healthy person it doesn't affect you so much.

You asked 'what wouldn't be considered a sub-optimal environment'. Most of the planet. Anywhere that has very few shops  :  )
We've gotta get used to the fact that what we're taught to think of as 'the world' is really only tiny bits of land in-between large portions of reality. The aboriginal bush is, believe it or not, an optimal environment for humans, so is the brazilian rain forest, so is the arctic, but so are all the wonderful bits of world in between the shopping malls and government shelters including every isolated garden, libraries, museums, galleries, parks, rivers and the wilderness in general. There are loads of places to get on with life in relative peace and quiet, but what is missing is the group factor. We are still talking 'individual musicians'.

Sure, some westerners have tried to put communes together but unless the ground rules align with nature's rules, and all members are aware that unless they develop inteligence they will fall prey to anxiety, we end up with incongruity and these groups either won't endure or will have a constant turnover of new hopefuls and old disillusioned members.

We've mainly got to pay attention to the scientific proof. Natural surroundings reduce anxiety and promote intelligence growth. It's that simple. Even a newbie stuck in a city apartment can fill a room with nature pics and plants. But the thing that promotes it most is interaction with others of like kind.

Finally, you asked how should a newbie go about developing congruence with values that conflict with those he spent a lifetime being fed by the misery perpetuation system.

We are almost all in that position when we begin, when we first start to grasp that society's values are not biology's values, and how the inner conflict that sets up is the cause of a great deal of unconscious anxiety. But I think internal conflicts about this fail to be resolved only if we're not prepared with sufficient background knowledge and ability, which is why we stress the importance of doing things in the right order.

By the time we meet the concept of incongruence in the tutorials, the student should have sufficient background knowledge and relaxation response/anxiety control ability to both be fully aware of and cope adequately with this unknown. When something makes sense to us in both theory and experience, it's a lot easier to deal with; like knowing about snapback.

Obviously we can't stop people from doing things in the wrong order, and this is a very good example of why it's so important.

Whew! That was fun  :  )  Thank you for waking up my brain
Best
AR

Meta wrote: As to the 'newbie who can't' bit, I meant a newbie who can't create an intelligence-oriented community by himself, where he lives, by the time he finds out about NH.

...I guess in that position we are a culture of one, but it's probably hard (at least for now) to discover much about NH without finding this site, and us lot  :  )
AR