Congratulations! First to spot it  :  )
The time here appears to be 00:08 and I'm watching 'Zenith' and chilling out after a lot of typing LOL
Best,
AR

Hey dudes

Lot of data to assimilate, probably in the in the next days/weeks i will have some question related T10

but .. i think that trying to interact "always" could seems annormal because first, we forget that doesn't mean that we couldn't have the emotions of digust of defensiveness if we spot a situation that we are certain that trying to interact with certain people is a waste of time ...?

For example if some people drunk in the street is bothering us etc of course trying to interact with that guy is a waste of time, and probably it could make it worse (exist that people than when you try to be gentil for some reason they get more angry, because they detect that they can't make you lose your mind)

Is hard anyways, in general probably most people are in "bully mode", they don't give a fuck about anything, to put a real example of a few days, some person put they car in front of my garage for hours, and i remember in that situation i ask myself, what the f .. i must do in a situation like this?? of course i was a little angry (maybe because is not the first time that people do that, and i know it will no be the last either) so the wimp virus was not a choice LOL.

From T10 only leave me for two choices .. action or interaction, let's see what could happend:

- Action scenenario:  I wait for the guy to come back to the car, and i say him ironically if he is blind, why he do that etc, probably getting a false apologies, or getting him angry insulting me or each other, or punching each other in the worst case.

What i gain in this case? Anxiety, a punched face (maybe, maybe not), and probably he will never come back to save the same discussion again.

- Interaction scenario: I wait for the guy, and i ask him gently why he put the car in the garage, but the only reason i can think that the interaction scenario is better is if him has a really really really good reason to do that (for example one block from my home there is a hospital, so maybe it was a urgency) but realistically speaking the chances are "who cares man, i do what i want" response ... why people like that deserves interaction from my part ...??

So in this last one, probaly this guy could see you like potential "weak" like "lol he is so nice i can do whatever i want", and i know that is incongruence, (the idea of trying with respect to people and they see as sign of weakness, and being bully the other way around, like wow man that guy don't get bullshit), but living in a world were a lot of people are in bully mode, one sometimes can't avoid to think damn "i'm fucking tired of dodging bullets" why you just don't shoot the agent smith and game over ... ..??

Trinity knows how to deal with agents

If we NH, are the system with more chances with survival, i really don't see anything terrible wrong with "kill" (metaphorical speaking) the other system less intelligent, if they are "obstructing" our path to entelechy, we know that we can have a lot of more chances to get allies, with healthy ones.

One could argue too, that the benefits of not ending with anxiety (in interaction mode) and the chances that you will use more empathy skills, try harder to understand the other people (his inner model), are somehow growing your brain in each interaction (and in the other, action/reaction we don't) becomming more intelligent, but what bugs me is the the idea i'm not sure if we realistically could make enter in reason the other one when they are in bully mode ... so why waste our time (energy) ..?

Of course i don't have experience in this yet .. so i think this will be the beggining of a phase to try to play with this new tools ...

More about this in the near future ..

Hi dudes,
Another long mail!

Sakiro Wrote:
i think that trying to interact "always" could seems annormal because first, that doesn't mean that we couldn't have the emotions of digust of defensiveness if we spot a situation that we are certain that trying to interact with certain people is a waste of time ...?

Absolutely; in exactly the same way the unconscious knows to 'get us up a tree' if we spot a situation that it's certain could result in being eaten, we are (should be) healthily programmed to use intuition to avoid disgusting encounters. Things in the middle of acting/reacting demand we 'get out of the way' -it's the only way to interact.*

BUT (that's a big but) if we're not in a life/death situation we must not assume we are, or that we're likely to be, without proof, because to do so is prejudice.
Prejudging situations and people is a classic tool of anxiety. The idea that people are 'probably' gonna be like x or do y, without proof, is one of the foundations of a paranoid society.
Feeling disgust at something genuinely disgusting is great and moves us into automatic interaction -we respond to a situation by withdrawing to a healthier space when we feel disgusted -away from the disgusting input.



[s] Is hard anyways, in general probably most people are in "bully mode", they don't give a fuck about anything,

Two points here. First it's more likely to be the wimp virus if someone doesn't give a fuck. Bullies tend to give more of a fuck than normal and poke their noses into everyone elses' lives.

Second, this is a classic example of prejudging. WE DON'T KNOW what most people are like because we haven't interacted with them yet. Core conditions insist we do the exact opposite -refuse to judge anyone without direct evidence. Remain absolutely impartial and treat each new encounter as “don't know yet” -because that is the truth. We have to learn to stop assuming the worst (or best) will happen ahead of time; stay in the here and now and find out what really happens in real life. With core conditions, when we meet a stranger we assume they are able to interact and 'behave as though' -doing this is what enables them to respond with interaction.



[s] to put a real example of a few days, some person put they car in front of my garage for hours, and i remember in that situation i ask myself, what the f .. i must do in a situation like this?? of course i was a little angry (maybe because is not the first time that people do that, and i know it will no be the last either) so the wimp virus was not a choice LOL.

Great stuff; I hope you are okay with me opening this up and looking at it as a good example for better understanding interaction. I think it could be a great help to explore the concepts.




[s]From T10 only leave me for two choices .. action o interaction, let's see what could happend:

We can't do an interactional analysis on something that hasn't happened yet. To do so we'd have to be prejudiced. Instead, let's find out what's really going on; not in our imagination of what things 'might be like' but by experiencing what they really are like.
Let's look at the elements of this situation in real life:

First, have you used forward planning measures, such as a sign on your garage that says 'no parking/access needed all times'? Have you fenced or hedged off your property so no one can park on it? -One thing I'm trying to figure is why you consider this space in front of the garage as 'yours', if you haven't made it clear to others that it's part of your property.

If the place where he parks is not on your land; if you've chosen to live somewhere with public right of access for parking, then this is just one result of your own choice. Maybe this guy parks here because someone else parks in front of his garage; maybe he's noticed you don't go out often and so won't be inconvenienced; maybe he noticed you have a routine and only parks there when he knows you don't go out; who knows?

Second, Interaction is about staying in the here and now. In the 'here and now' of the example above, there is no human present to interact with, so we interact with the situation (and if necessary, the car).

It's of no use to interaction thinking 'what if' I need the car?' -that's an imaginary future -we must stay in the here and now. In the here and now there is you, there are your immediate needs, and there is this car.

If you need to get out the garage, you call the car owner and say 'I need to get out my garage and your car's in the way' (all vehicle license plates will tell you who the owner is if you look up on the net.) If you know who it is, you can knock at their door and say, “Excuse me dude, I need to get my car out; could you move yours?”

If the guy makes a habit of it, you can time your shopping trips, etc., so you 'need to go out in the car' a half hour after his is left there, almost every time. Point out to them that you will also need to get back in, in an hour or so. People soon get sick of having to keep moving their car, and park elsewhere.

But let's stay in the present. -If we can't locate the owner, we move the car aside (very easy with a trolley jack, or a rock + lever under the axle).

If you don't need to get out the garage, and the vehicle isn't on your property, there is no problem. Nothing is actually 'in the way' of anything, in real life.

Incidentally, this example is so great, as it happens at Homeworld UK a lot. Because we've chosen to live on a public road, folks park right across the drive entrance, and this is how it gets solved. (We don't need levers etc to move a car, as there's lots of us. Seven of you can easily pick up a car and put it wherever you like). But we don't waste energy because if we don't actually need to get out the drive, the car isn't actually 'in the way', in real life. We gotta go with reality. -If it ain't in the way, why shift it?

Note, none of our behavior damages the car in any way, and if the owner came along and caught us moving it, the interaction is simple: “I'm sorry; I needed to get out my garage and I couldn't find out who owned this car -no damage done.”

In case of emergency, we deal with the emergency or we call 911; we don't go trying to get cars out. Civilians' vehicles can never get from A to B as fast as something with sirens and flashing lights, and there's no harm in using the good bits of the system.
If we get a surfeit of inconsiderate behavior from neighbors in the long term, we generally consider moving. Maybe you'd prefer to have fewer neighbors, or live somewhere nobody parks on the street?

...Far more interesting from our NH pov here is what anxiety is trying to do -note how it tries to get us all caught up in worrying about what someone else thinks of us:



[s] So in this last one, probaly this guy could see you like potential "weak" like "lol he is so nice i can do whatever", and i know that is incongruence, (the idea of trying with respect to people as a sign of weakness, and being bully the other way around), but living in a world were a lot of people are in bully mode, one sometimes can't avoid to think damn "i'm fucking tired of doding bullets" why you just shoot the agent and game over ... ..??

It's prejudice to assume what others 'might think', without any proof. If someone is truly retarded, their misperception of reality will happen regardless of what we do. The incongruity is well spotted, but notice the assumption (underlined). Did you notice anxiety sneaking that one in?
In real life, most of the people in the real world are not stuck 'in bully mode'. Okay, maybe Hitler's current contemporaries are, but if we really do live in an area where there are drive-by shootings, KKK burnings, beheadings or ethnic cleansing at the behest of some tyrant, it's time to strategize for leaving.
In real life, we meet very very few individuals who are a real threat, unless we work in a high security facility for the criminally insane. So watch out for melodramatics and mass generalizations, because anxiety loves them dearly, but we're in the sensible corner  :  )



[s] what bugs me is the the idea i'm not sure if we realistically could make enter in reason when they are in bully mode ... so why waste our time ..?

Totally true -it's a waste of time trying to debate with an alligator, or teach a pig to play the piano. But when a real intelligence still exists beneath the crippling viruses, there is a benefit to interacting with it, and we can't ever assume there isn't ahead of time, when we have no proof.



Re: “realistically speaking the chances are "who cares man, i do what i want" response ... why people like that deserves interaction from my part ...?? “

This is not 'realistically speaking', it's biased guessing with no proof. It's an imaginary assumption of what reality might be. We have no evidence at all about this person, and plenty of evidence that nobody is permanently in one mode. Everybody has their wimp times and their bully times. This guy is possibly worrying what someone else (maybe his boss or his wife) thinks of him just as others worry about what he thinks of them. It's all speculation founded on no evidence -we have NO PROOF for guessing what someone else thinks until we interact with them and anything else is anxious nonsense wasting our time.

This is what being 'open to experience' means. All we can guess about this guy right now is he's possibly very distracted, possibly has low cultural awareness, possibly is not terrifically bright. -Are any of those a crime that makes him a 'bad' person? Why are we thinking the worst of this unknown person and judging them in a 'probably' light, instead of finding out the real truth about what they're like?

Intriguingly, we could ask ourselves how do we know that in a fit of absent-mindedness or extreme fatigue we haven't accidentally done exactly the same thing (or something similar) to someone else without noticing?  :  )  I know I have. So we gain extra awareness of our own behavior from observing someone else's mistakes.

That's enough from me, as you said you're still working on it too so I hope these thoughts are useful.
Best,
AR
*A good example of poor intuition being Dr.M.Rixon, Zoologist, who failed to interact in this way, and was shat on by an elephant.

Quick Update: The story of the garage stuff, i wrote in a piece of paper a not very friendly note ("next time i call to park your car" style) and put it in his "windscreen" (i don't know the exactly word in english for "parabrisas") .. a few minutes later, my mom come and i said to her "do you see that? another one who park in front of our garage" and she said "wait! it was an old man who asked me gently if he could park it for a few hours because he is too old to walk a lot" oh shit i said, why you didn't tell me that? and i ran quickly to quit the note! LOL.

Obviously i had an action, probably if the note was more gently like "please, this place is not allowed to park" could be seen more like a interaction, but it wasn't the case.

The old man has all my respect because he obviously did an interaction talking with my mother before he park the car.

All this happend before i create the post here of course.

And this remember me, one time where i did something similar (the note stuff) and the owner of the car the next day, put it again, but not only that, he parked it "inside" the street, like trying to enter the garage itself .. (he was obviously asking for it ..) that's is the kind of people who (probably because i'm inexperienced) difficult to try to interact, because they are so bully in the first place (looking at what he did, he not only did it again, but in a more "agressive" and innecesary way), i don't see his car again after that so i don't have an "ending story" for that one ..

Sometimes i have difficult to separate "wimp" thought to "interactional" ones, for example similar situation i could approach like "it's ok, i need to use the car, but the place where i need to go is near anyways so i can take advantage of that, and walk a few blocks, is healthy for me" and that could be seen as a way to "reframe" the problem, but sometimes i have little "voices" in my head that "tell's" me that i think that because of a way to avoid the "confrontation" with other people (wimp mode).

Well that's it for now.

[alex wrote] Sakiro, did you notice where communication broke down, in the course of events you describe? (Your mom didn't tell you this had happened). Next time something apparently out of order happens, ask your mom if she knows about it -we must always gather all the facts we can before doing anything. Most of the misunderstandings in shared houses come from people not talking to each other and not sharing news.


Well, when that happend i told my mom why she didn't tell me that the old man ask her is he could park in our garage, but she said that it was my responsability to ask her before i think about to write the note, i said that chances are more practical the other way around blabla .. dicussion started, at least i learn that next time i ask her to save a situation like this.


[alex wrote] You don't reveal whether you do actually own this land that is being parked on, or whether you really did actually need to go out...? If neither of these is true, there's no excuse to leave any kind of note at all. Finding notes under windscreens raises anxiety anyway, everyone thinks they got a parking fine.


Well, we live here for more than 30 years, and we are not renting the house or the garage, is ours (the garage is beside the house. So there is no excuse for the other person to say "i didn't know i couldn't park here!" and i ask this .. even if they have a "good" reason to do that, why they think they have the autorithy to do that and potentially perjudicate the other person? (i can have an emergency too, they don't know)



[alex wrote] We cannot make ANY assumptions that we cannot prove. The owner of that car could be the sexiest person we've ever seen, a doctor on call, someone else disabled, or a detective on stakeout. Is there a streetlight right there? -young girls often park under lights, their parents tell them its safer. The point is we have no facts here and without facts everything is unknown. The first step in any task is gathering information.
There's also the matter of our own responsibility (boundary marking and clear notification) to consider, and the questions above.


But in the case i explained, (the guy who parked twice, even when i wrote them to not do it again, and the second one did it in a more "provocative" way), i gather some stuff, it's a fact that i write the note, is a fact that he did it twice, is a fact that he has not neccesity to park in the way he did (perpendicular, getting inside the street), of course i don't know a lot of other stuff, but isn't a function of a brain to make predictions and computate probabilities??? sometimes i need to make a decision "right now" or "soon" and i can't wait to gather all the possibilities, so i don't see how it can be bad to do that??

For example, if in the past, i see a guy with yellow t-shirt, wrote in it "fuck you", he start to follow me and steal from me, it makes sense that in the future if ia see a similar guy and start to following me i will make the prediction based in the question "And what happend in that situation ..?" even if i don't know for certain that he will do that, (maybe he just goes at the same place like i do etc), but you still take a decision based in your past experiences ... your own inner model ..

And, probably this only "works" for very developed brains, but part of the intuition stuff, you could "know" something even if the "logical" part still don't get it or knows it .. (it says something like that in T9)

I think that probably inexperienced or not enough developed brains, don't know how to hanlde this because they maybe still get axiety raised fast, (like they start interacting, the other ones start screaming or insulting them and we get anxious too and all goes to hell) or they can't "control" the flow of the interaction, etc, and for that reason could be seen "wow really, this can be done?!".

Alex do you have some experience to share where you or the other one approach you, preferably unknown persons (in bully mode) and you tried to interact with him/her and together "find out the truth" like you said ??

Other question, the mainstream term "passive aggresive" in our map is still "wimp mode"? for example a guy who hates his boss, and he acts responding nicely about every demand he impose on him, but in secret he insult him or talk bad about him with his friends at work, make errors at work to perjudicate the company etc.

In T10 you explain the other way to get a FA really fast (using the list of sentiments etc) the future new FA will be based on similar approach or is more like the one we have here where we answer a lot of questions??


Cheers

Hi dudes,
Ok I think I got the rest in here...

Sakiro wrote:
For example, if in the past, i see a guy with yellow t-shirt, writing in it "fuck you", he start to follow me and steal from me, it makes sense that in the future if ia see a similar guy and start to following me i will make the prediction based in the question "And what happend in that situation ..?" even if i don't know for certain that he will do that, (maybe he just goes at the same place like i do etc), but you still take a decision based in your past experiences ... your own inner model ..


This is an example of “surreal synthetic scenarios”. They're a sneaky trick anxiety pulls; using as 'What if...?' thought experiments really weird scenarios that in real life would hardly ever happen, and applying them to current issues in ways that distort the outcome.

In real life, if we actually did meet two different individuals in the same area in a short space of time with such a unique tee shirt, we'd be justified in wondering whether they might not be related in some way; for example members of a group, club or gang. Anyone following us is dodgy, regardless of whether they look like someone else who was dodgy last week, so of course this sequence of events -if it happened in real life- would warrant concern. And of course that would imply caution is required but the point is, it's very very unlikely to actually happen in real life and if it did there would be clear associating circumstances.

We cannot extrapolate this kind of 'what if' argument to include normal situations that DO occur, for example a dude with ginger hair mugs us -should we then be wary of all ginger-haired individuals? Of course not -unless we have reason to suspect they are associated with the mugger, or they start following us or otherwise behaving suspiciously.

[Cue quote from Winnie The Pooh:]
“What if a tree fell on top of us just as we were walking underneath?!” said Piglet anxiously.
   “...What if it didn't?” said Pooh.  :  )

Surreal scenarios make people say things like, “Oh, but if everyone lived your way there wouldn't be enough resources”, etc etc; completely missing the point that everyone is NOT living 'my way' -and the more important point that if they were, I'd adapt and change my way!

We have to stick to the truth, and past experiences as well as thought experiments are only relevant if they have high probability of accurate association with the present.
We gotta be Sherlock Holmes and get the actual facts on the table before we can untangle a problem. Often achieving this is the most difficult part of a problem to hack. That's why it takes 3 pipes  :  ) 

[s] Alex do you have some experience to share where you or the other one approach you, preferably unkwnon persons (in bully mode) and you tried to interact with him/her and together "find out the truth" like you said ??

Hell yeh; most times you go out round here you meet at least one  :  ) 
It's not possible to try to find the truth while anxiety is still present, so the first thing to do is get them out of bully mode. How we do that depends partly on keeping calm ourselves, and partly on output control; tone of voice and self-presentation, as well as the words you use. I'm fairly good at appearing 'nutty professor' harmless but useful, or drunk and mildly confused, Patrick Moore style.

Strangers don't usually bother me these days because I'm almost always doing something, and such weirdos tend to pick on those who are not.

Past example from someone I knew:
3 of us are sitting in a bar garden, drinking. This dude comes in and proceeds to have a go at us; how we are so boring, living in a dream world where science can solve everything, long-haired layabouts, f****** drug addicts, etc, etc, with quite pronounced aggression, yelling and thumping tables. I look confused, and in the silence that follows the tirade I say, “Then, ...why are you here?”*
“Good f****** point,” says the bully and stalks out.

* The truth was, he had tried to get a colleagues' pants down and she'd said no  :  )


[s]
Other question, the mainstream term "passive aggresive" in our map is still "wimp mode"?

Nope, these are still bullies; this is bullies' intro mode. Wimps either moan and complain or just sit back and sigh, “Well, I'm helpless; what can I do?”


[s] for example a guy who hates his boss, and he acts responding nicely about every demand he impose on him, but in secret he insult him or talk bad about him with his friends at work, make errors at work to perjudicate the company etc.

If he's only moaning, this is wimp extro mode. When he takes action to harm the other or deliberately mucks up work to cause trouble, then he's in bully intro mode. Bullies normally take action against others, whether passive or aggressive it's still bullying. Wimps don't take action; they react by moaning or withdrawing. Remember people can be bullies/ wimps at different times.


[s] In T10 you explain the other way to get a FA really fast (using the list of sentiments etc) the future new FA will be based on similar approach or is more like the one we have here where we ask a answer a lot of questions??

The Intermediate FA has 3 parts per network. The first part is like the Basics FA, the second part tests specific skills in the same format, and the third part is puzzles (and we can only do this part once, because we have to view the answers to count our scores.)

It should be around in a couple of weeks if all goes well.
Best,
AR


[/color]

Hi dude,

The last such query you submitted (regarding people parking and who owns what) remains unresolved. If others' ideas on the forum are not helping with that, they may not help with this. Either way it would probably be best to resolve the first dilemma before embarking on a second?  :  )

You can always 'Alice and Bob' the problem and analyze it that way; this makes it easier to get a perspective without any false value judgements creeping in.

Similar questions arise here as last time: who owns the property these people are hanging out on? If it is 'public property' there should be some council or organization who are supposed to look after it, but it isn't yours.

Here are various ideas for various circumstances:

Adapt
You will get used to it. Biology makes sure we get enough sleep if we let it. When first moving to a city I was kept awake by noise for a few days, them the system adjusted, and in the meantime I tool lunchtime naps. Kids adjust really fast and will sleep in a disco.

Alternative: change your sleeping time. Biology won't mind as long as you get enough. The best way to change sleep patterns deliberately is slowly; otherwise you risk jet lag without the jet.

SFX department
If people are starting to hang around your area who are a genuine threat to you and you feel a need to repel them, there are several smart tricks including collecting doggy poop and leaving it where they like to sit (obviously not viable if it's right outside your home). Another resort is the moment you first hear them call the cops and report them for peeing in the street (its really hard to prove one didn't do this, if reported by a witness.)

Fake vomit will stop people from sitting down or hanging around near it, and it can be made very easily with custard powder, milk, and orange juice with added chopped food scraps. It doesn't smell as bad as real vomit but can build up quite a pong if left in the sun for a while.


Then there's attack from many directions.
You send several letters (each different, for example one typed, two in different handwriting) to the relevant authorities pretending to be three 'neighbors' complaining about the same thing. An even better option is to get three different real people to complain. A couple of phone calls in different accents from public phones or 'one-use' cellphones also helps. If coordinated well, to the authorities it looks like lots of people are complaining and they tend to take it more seriously than just one.

For all you know, others are already complaining in these ways; even better.

sound effects
Raucous people tend not to hang around anywhere they can hear classical music. It might be nicer to drop off to the sound of Beethoven than cans crashing and people swearing?

tech
These days, there are these marvelous inventions called 'noise cancellation headphones'. When my current neighbors moved in I found them very noisy so I slept in mine. This is a nice neat techy solution but you do have to buy or build the headphones.


Are you sure you want to close windows... [A]abort [R]retry [G] get a beer
Finally, never underestimate serendipity. I once hammered on a neighbors' door in London at 3am after doing a night shift, as they were having a really loud session. I turned up in a dressing gown with a fire axe, and said, "I've come to fix your stereo". The Rasta who opened the door cracked up laughing, invited me in to the party, and became a best friend over the few years I was there.

Maybe these dudes are bored. Maybe they'd be interested in neurohacking  :  )
Hope some of this is of some use!
Best,
AR