English (United Kingdom)French (Fr)Russian (CIS)Espa
Home Forum Neurohacking The Lab Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Login

      
      |
If you want to register, please send a mail introducing yourself to nha.council at our domain name (omitting the "www" of course).

Sakiro
useravatar
User Info

Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

i have a thought about this .. maybe i not understand well yet but, if we use our inner model to locate everything new we learn, and knowing that our spatial orientation/navigation skills use the same map too, isn't a priority to enhance and take extra attention to exercise that concret skills??

I mean, if we have trouble with knowing our position in space, maybe when we use our abstract skills, the system will have the same problem to locate/retrieve the data from the inner model???

I'm trying here to forge a link with the concret --> abstract stuff that is discussed in the tutorials (like how doing balance exercises (concrete skills) could help to understand or have better emotional balance etc)

I'm wondering, if the orientation stuff have maybe a more important weight in our cognitive abilities, again, for the relationshiip of the inner model that is based to map where we are in space.

Make sense???



Edited By:  Sakiro
Nov-03-12 18:19:01

Administrator has disabled public posting
Meta Process
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Yup. Concreteness is also a mental construct. =]


Administrator has disabled public posting
Alex
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

sakiro wrote: if we use our inner model to locate everything new we learn, and knowing that our spatial orientation/navigation skills use the same map too, isn't a priority to enhance and take extra attention to exercise that concret skills??

Yes! Always do things in the right order  :  ) But there are many different ways to exercise those skills.


[s] if we have trouble with knowing our position in space, maybe when we use our abstract skills, the system will have the same problem to locate/retrieve the data from the inner model???

If we have trouble with knowing our position in space, NASA can be helpful. Don't trust Skynav; that's what keeps causing people like me to crash on planets like this (joke)

We can't actually develop abstract skills much without a critical mass of concrete skill networks in situ. A basic skill such as paying attention, for example, is needed for just about everything. Without it we'll lose things, get lost, have more accidents, AND have poor memory and categorization skills. Yet the ability to pay attention itself relies on our concrete ability to relax and 'slow down' sufficiently to be receptive and attentive.

Intelligence develops by moving from the concrete to the abstract and back again. Concrete input leads to abstract ideas, and abstract ideas lead to concrete inventions.


[s] I'm trying here to forge a link with the concret --> abstract stuff that is discussed in the tutorials (like how doing balance exercises (concrete skills) could help to understand or have better emotional balance etc)

They use the same bit of network and the same processes. This is now a Mega-long mail, as I'm just explaining some of this topic in tutorial 10, so here's some previews that might explain more. Sorry, no footnotes, the refs are all over the place and I haven't done the diagrams yet!

**** excerpts, tutorial 10 ****
The 'hub' of N4 is a conglomerate of neuronal cell bodies towards the front of the right hemisphere (area marked in blue), whose axons go all over the brain. It is involved in processing both concrete and abstract temporal, group, contextual situations we will here call constructs.

Network 4 Functions
CONSTRUCTION & CREATIVITY
Definitions: A construct is a synthesis of interacting agents that share both a similarity of function and a context. They may be concrete (for example cells, bricks, books, bees, people) or abstract  (for example facts, ideas, beliefs, ontologies, words). Brought together as a construct they display both synchronized behavior and duration through time. A database, a memory, a culture, an orchestra, an engine, a living body, a beating heart, a story, a machine, a garden, N3's inner model, an ants nest and a library are all good examples of constructs. Constructs, by nature of their complexity, of necessity involve concept sets.

The heart (and quite possibly an ants nest) is an 'automatic' construct. An orchestra on the other hand is an autonomic construct -we create it from our own free will by participating in the behaviors that define it and we consciously control its behavior as a unit by each playing our own part in a dynamic group interaction.** But not all constructs are made by us. Biology creates constructs too; the heart is one.

N4, just like N1, specializes in processing tasks involving timing, order, manipulation and control; but this time round, these processes are not employed in learning to walk. That skill went automatic long ago, and we now apply the same processes to the manipulation of other objects, materials and also abstract ideas.

Unsurprisingly, the same processes that allow us to construct things in real life such as shelters, tools, buildings and spaceships, also enable us to build images of (to imagine) abstract constructs in our minds such as scientific theories, designs, inventions, mathematical formulae and computer programs, and they contribute immensely to our design skills and creativity. Constructional deficits are notably more severe after right hemisphere damage. (refs Arrigoni & DeRenzi, 1964; Black & Strub, 1976; Benson & Barton, 1970; Bradshaw & Mattingly, 1995; Critchley, 1953; Hier et al., 1983; Piercy et al., 1960).

To the core behaviors of gathering together, relaxation and balance that it shares with N1, N4 adds 'synthesis' (the opposite of analysis) -the process of bringing things together in specific ways to function in harmony or synchrony, which we use for creating constructs. N3 and N4 together, with their support from rear networks, have the programming skills necessary to understand, create and maintain an abstract construct.

**********************

DEXTERITY, COMPLEX TOOL USE & SYNC
N4 enables both complex concrete tool use (such as playing with an orchestra) and complex abstract tool use (such as manipulating mathematics to prove a theorem, musical notes to create a melody, words to construct a poem, or code to program a computer).

We already have the ability for simple tool use provided by rear nets; dexterity isn't just hand-eye coordination but focused and synchronized interactive coordination that has duration through time. Playing a flute is simple behavior that relies on synchronization between our bodies and a tool (the flute) according to an imaginary rhythm of our choice. Playing the flute in an orchestra requires synchronization with others and the ability to keep track of a group procedure; enabling an intrinsic order to emerge so that all agents function as a unit. These abilities require mental (abstract) dexterity as well as physical (concrete) dexterity, which only N4 can provide.

Likewise making and using a spear is simple behavior, organizing a group hunt is complex behavior; a procedure requiring synchronized interaction as a construct (the hunting party) and only N4 can pull off this sort of trick in real time.
*************

The senses associated with any rear network are always its hardware tools for comprehension of input, and its processes are software tools for enabling physical interaction. Front networks are able to abstract both tools and processes.

Perspective
For example, our senses of distance and direction, provided by network 2, give us our awareness of physical perspective and distance-related size; we can tell easily that a closer object is not really bigger than a more distant object; it is our relative perspective that creates the illusion of things getting smaller as they move away.

We understand perspective in input once N2 is fully developed, but we can't draw 3D representations of perspective until N4 is up and running sufficiently to grasp the process or formula to reproduce perspective (between the ages of 7 and 11). With right cerebral injuries, visual-spatial perceptual functioning becomes distorted (although motor activities per se are preserved) and the person may not realize they have made an error. (refs Hecaen & Assal, 1970).

Once N4 IS up and running, the concept of perspective can be abstracted. We can 'get a perspective' on situations, other people's states of mind, or a series of events. The words 'my perspective' come to mean not just the concrete “what I can see from where I'm standing” but are abstracted to mean, 'how I see things'; not with my eyes but from my inner point of view. We say someone should 'get a sense of perspective' when they are overly dramatic or hysterical about a trivial event, and we mean something like 'see things in the bigger context of life, events and circumstances'.

N4 has abstracted the material sensory concepts -sight and perspective- and enabled them to describe events in the reality of thoughts and ideas as well as in the reality of material life.

Aesthetics
Abstraction is a major process in all front networks. For example our concrete awareness of our sensory likes and dislikes, if they are congruent, leads in maturity to a sense of aesthetics -(the recognition of/ synthesis of those shapes, colors, sounds, combinations and movements that are naturally pleasing to biology because they're beneficial to it).

Again we abstract a material sensory concept, in this case taste, to describe our sense of aesthetics; 'having good taste' means that we have the ability to recognize or reproduce those measurable combinations that communicate pleasure to healthy biology. Symmetry of form, the golden section REFSand fibonacci series, REFSalong with the 'rule of thirds' REFSare perhaps the most well known and tested, as ratios with strong appeal to human biology as experiencing them triggers the release of beneficial transmitters (perhaps the least well known is the reputed 'brown noise' that makes humans lose control of their bowels, because nobody wants to do the experiment to prove that one).


meta process wrote:  Concreteness is also a mental construct.
In a sense, everything we experience is, including consciousness, but the important thing is 'concreteness' is a mental concept that refers to a specific kind of reality -the material world which can be detected via the senses and measured and consists of matter and physical forces (energy). A brick is a 'concrete' concept; a house is a concrete construct. A thought or idea about bricks or houses isn't. For intermediate NH, that's all we need to grasp.
Best,
AR


Administrator has disabled public posting
Sakiro
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Hey guys, i know that the original question was answered (the importance of having good orientation/navigation skills because the inner model use it too for abstract skills etc)

Just pass here to drop the bits from T7 that make me think the importance of it.

" .. Grid cells use the inner model; the abstract spatial structure that is constructed inside the brain and superimposed on every context by the brain irregardless of sensory input or actual features of the environment; categorising everything according to its location on an imagined 3D grid .. "

" ... The inner model is activated in a universal manner across environments, regardless of the environment's particular landmarks, suggesting that the same neural model is applied everywhere. The grid associates closely with self-motion cues because it forms instantaneously in a novel environment and is not perturbed by removal of visual cues. Because the inner model also associates with eidetic core concepts this allows percept to be matched with concept, experience to be translated into meaning, instantly .. "

" .. If this grid system is fully functional on the concrete level we not only have our own internal GPS system but onboard motion sensor as well. N3 logs all movement within the grid; from the complex vectors involved in playing tennis to the microscopic flicker of an eyelid. This ability to associate points in a mental ‘spatial network’ model to real points in space in both the outside environment and muscular movement of the body reveals the core behind not only the ability for navigation but to the entire structure of perception and interpretation, and all memory storage and recall. Because on the abstract level N3 uses its spatial map to build the inner model as a mind map for the whole of memory and learning for the rest of our lives .."

So now i'm thinking, how having an undeveloped "GPS" (orientation/spatial skills) affect to our intelligence in the abstract level ..?? sorry that i don't found the exact words to explain it better, but when i read this part (again and again) from T7, i can't avoid to think that is not only important to exercises this abilities but make it a "must have" ... again, because i interpret it, that is the way that our brain will locate/retrieve stuff from our inner model .. and everything start from there ..?

And is very common to see people nowadays with poor orientation/spatial skills ..

Sorry to get back to this topic again, but i want to have it very clear.


Administrator has disabled public posting
Alex
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Hi dudes,
Sakiro Wrote: So now i'm thinking, how having an undeveloped "GPS" (orientation/spatial skills) affect to our intelligence in the abstract level ..??

If we get lost trying to navigate through the concrete world, we're also likely to 'get lost' when trying to deal with 'navigating through a problem'. We'll make the same mistakes -take a wrong turn, go off down an alley with no through access, go around in 'reasoning circles'. It will be very hard to get through complex explanations without 'getting lost' halfway through. We'll find it difficult to 'stay on course' (stick to the point) and avoid topic drift and irrelevant tangents. We may well get there in the end, after a lot of time-wasting twists and turns chasing the wrong information. Lists of procedural instructions will confuse as as much as directions do. We probably won't spell or do arithmetic very well. In resource management, we'll 'lose track', strategize and account poorly, accruing debts and problems. In relationships, it will be hard to keep track of what's going on and we'll get 'lost' here too; 'lost for words'.

Think about the spatial-motion-related words we metaphorize to explicate this -”Can you grasp it”/ “It goes right over my head”/ “What sort of space is she in”/ “He's stuck up shit creek without a paddle”/ “You've lost me”/ “I can't keep track”/ "I can't handle it"...

I could go on for paragraphs about abstract skills that rely on concrete skills, but this is the gist, so I'll stop unless you need more. If we can't do concrete spatial orientation & navigation, we can't do abstract mental orientation & navigation.

Failure to grasp (heh heh) spatial skills is often due to failure of long-range sight to develop, in turn this is due to (a)not enough long-range visual experience and (b)too much close-range focus (eg, reading) too soon in our development. Almost anyone who can read before age 10 has screwed their eyesight. I'm one of these people, and we have to rewire perception to compensate just like the blind do, which takes years. I'm only just now managing to 'not get lost' in the complex realm of N5 logic, maths and formal reasoning, thanks to NH  :  )
Best,
AR


Administrator has disabled public posting
Sakiro
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Cool, now i got it, spot on in some points related to me .. so it was very good to "know myself" better .. (because i have poor spatial skills and bad eyesight), now is time to tune my personal exercises and incorporate it once and for all (i think that i was delaying that kind of training because it is optimal doing in the outside world)

But not anymore! I have a plan to stay almost all the day outside home (i will buy a laptop) and work/do my stuff in some park where i'm more in touch to nature etc, let's see how it goes.

Eyesight: Do you think that we really are capable to develop a long-range sight too see stuff from miles away? (don't remember exactly which tutorial said that) or that only happend with the tribes that have a lot of long range practise from the beggining with no wronguse? (TV - Reading)

Concret/Abstract: There is some benefit, to go from example "having a good" spatial/navigation skills (or whatever other concret skill) to upgrade to an "excellent" one ..? I mean keeping the analogy flowing .. maybe now is even easier for you "not get lost" in the abstract level than before (when you only were "good")..? That increase in complexity in the concret (because you try to be even better) makes a transfer in the abstract level too?

Or once you get it to a normal level is a waste of time to keep getting better in that concret skill and one needs to just focus in the abstract level now? (in terms to achieve the optimal performance)

Sorry if i get you lost .. hehe ;)


Administrator has disabled public posting
Alex
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Hi dudes,
Sakiro Wrote:
Eyesight: Do you think that we really are capable to develop a long-rage too see stuff from miles away? (don't remember exactly which tutorial said that)

A lot depends on age; not because we can't do stuff when we're older but because we have spent many years rewiring to compensate for the disability and now may run out of time for “re-rewiring” (if you see what I mean?)  My eyesight has slowly improved since I stopped depending on contact lenses and started long-distance focus practice, but for full recovery I'd need to spend half my waking time outdoors with long distance scenarios available for decades, and that's not so easy when you need to spend a lot of time typing and looking at close work.

What's harder is watching everyone send their kids off to school to get their eyesight knackered, relief from that comes only from knowing at least my own two have perfect sight; they started reading at ten.


[s] Abtract/Concret: Do you think that there is some benefit, to go from example "having a good" spatial/navigation skills (or whatever other concret skill) to upgrade to an "excellent" one ..? I mean keeping the analogy flowing .. maybe now is even easier for you "not get lost" than before ..? Or once you get it to a normal level is a waste of time to keep getting better in that concret skill and need to just focus in the abstract level now?

Dude I was famous for getting lost; both in the concrete and the abstract sense  :  )  It's been fun looking at the reasons for that and addressing it, and for me lack of attention was a big issue. As soon as I got attention into shape, a lot of the spatial skills I thought I didn't have just kicked in. It's exactly the same reason I had trouble remembering faces -I didn't pay attention to them in the first place unless they were unusually interesting. Most peoples' faces (and their conversations) are like robots  :  )  For me it was as had as telling sheep apart.

I'm still learning and applying these new skills as much as I can, feel like my unconscious has done this amazing job of flying by the seat of its pants for many years and I'm suddenly giving it all the apps it should have had access to.  LOL  :  )
Best,
AR


Administrator has disabled public posting
Sakiro
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Alex wrote:



I could go on for paragraphs about abstract skills that rely on concrete skills, but this is the gist, so I'll stop unless you need more. If we can't do concrete spatial orientation & navigation, we can't do abstract mental orientation & navigation.
AR
Hi dude, is this "offer" still available? LOL =)

I would like to know it to better fine tune my personal NH plan. (Probably other people can make use of it too, somehow can complement with FA?)

Cheers


Administrator has disabled public posting
Alex
useravatar
User Info

Re: Inner Model and Spatial Orientation/Navigation

Hi dudes,
Alex wrote:I could go on for paragraphs about abstract skills that rely on concrete skills
Sakiro Wrote: Hi dude, is this "offer" still available? LOL =)

To start at the beginning of this discovery we have to look at Vernon Mountcastle's work from way back (and this is also where Jeff Hawkins is looking, btw). Start with:

1 - Vernon B. Mountcastle - The columnar organization of the neocortex
Journal: Brain, vol. 120, n. 4, pp. 701-722, 1997
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content … 1.full.pdf

2 - Vernon B. Mountcastle - Introduction
Journal: Cerebral Cortex, vol. 13, n. 1, pp. 2 - 4, 2003
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/13/1/2.long

if the links fail and/or they want you to pay, don't. I have copies of these papers. Remember these were written long ago and use some different terminology.

Mountcastle was working along the same lines we are, but without the supporting tech we have now. He's now around 95 and still working, but right at the start he missed the big issue that ALL the brain is organized this way (not just the neocortex, but every module), because the software sculpts them this way as most convenient for it.

The important issue for us of course is not just brain organization but mind organization; and while Mountcastle's conclusions allow for sixfold symmetry and repetitive programming it does little to tell us what those programs ARE. Hawkins has gone some way into this but includes the software as part of the hardware for reasons which escape me (unless maybe this makes it easier to work in an AI context?)
When you've got those basics, go here:

"One region, two functions: Brain cells' multitasking key to understanding overall brain function." -"Independent category and spatial encoding in parietal cortex," (published online by the journal Neuron.March 6th, 2013).
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-03-r … sking.html

This explains how an area involved in spatial attention and eye movements can also play a role in non-spatial functions such as categorization.

Then go here:
Sian Beilock et al. Sports Experience Enhances the Neural Processing of Action Language. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences., September 2, 2008 “Playing, And Even Watching, Sports Improves Brain Function”. ScienceDaily.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 205631.htm

This will show you how the same parts of brain are being used for motion and language interpretation.
Then let me know what aspects of this you particularly want to follow up.
Best,
AR


Administrator has disabled public posting

Board Info

User Info:   Newest User :  sailing 1   Members Online: 0   Guests Online: 601
Topic
Nuevo
Locked
Topic
Nuevo
Locked
Sticky
Active
New/Active
Sticky
Active
New/Active
New/Closed
New Sticky
Closed/Active
New/Locked
New Sticky
Locked/Active
Active/Sticky
Sticky/Locked
Sticky Active Locked
Active/Sticky
Sticky/Locked
Sticky/Active/Locked