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Fractal
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Transcranial direct current stimulation

Hey Dudes,

This seems really interesting:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/08/direct … -than.html

From the article it seems like tDCS could have similar uses to TMS, but be far easier to use (all you need is a 9V battery and some electrodes).

So what could be the downsides? One possibility is that if this mirrors the effects of autism, it could lead to nonuse in other networks, but OTOH could you put a current across the networks which are currently underused while doing excersizes to develop those networks further?
Is it possible to use electrodes in this way on areas of the head covered by hair?

An important point when dealing with any sort of enhancement is to ask why it did not evolve in nature. In this case, I don't mean why did we not evolve 9V batteries and electrodes, I mean why does this level of performance not occur naturally?

One answer is that it does not occur for the same reason birds do not have jet engines - there is no way it could actually evolve.

Another answer is that if it does cause certain networks to temporarily become inactive, this could have had a far higher costs in the environment we evolved in then it would in our current environment (e.g. not noticing predators because N2 is offline)


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empathia
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

Still looking at this one... as you pointed out, the resulting non-use in earlier networks (N1-N3) is probably a good reason not to use this one. At least Deep TMS targets N3 area so it's going to improve bonding etc.

But as always, I'm pitching for what I'm excited about. I hope Alex comes and tells me I'm wrong.


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Fractal
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

empathia wrote:

as you pointed out, the resulting non-use in earlier networks (N1-N3) is probably a good reason not to use this one.
It depends - in the experiment they targeted the front networks, why could it not also be used to target rear networks? Also, it is just my conjecture that using it would increase the amount of non-use in other networks, and whether its use a good idea depends upon the magnitude of the increase in nonuse in other networks vs the increase in ability of the networks targeted.


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Alex
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

Hi dude,

This appears to be a new name for CES, invented by Eric Wassermann (note the name of the original PubMed paper -”Temporal Lobe Cortical Electrical Stimulation during the encoding and retrieval phase reduces false memories”)
The article itself is written by “BW”, whom as far as I can tell has either misunderstood the original science paper OR is possibly Wasserman or someone trying to promote Wasserman? We are not told who BW is or whether s/he knows anything about brain stimulation?
This is definitely not “new” either -CES has been around for over 100 years (this is not a joke):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical … timulation

alternate names so far have been:
Cranial electrical stimulation
Cranial electrotherapy stimulation
Cortical electrical stimulation
Cortical electrotherapy stimulation

CES results vary widely on different individuals. The one thing most people seem to experience is a 'balancing' effect whereby overactive or wrongly-used networks seem to calm down, and underused nets seem to increase activity. It seems particularly effective for improving connections between networks, making it easier for the brain to cross-reference information and this may be why it reduces false memories.
The information in the article about Eric Wassermann is not true (ie., he hasn't invented anything new).
Hunt through PlosOne or PubMed for articles on CES like the one above and you'll find similar experiments have been going on for decades.
Some info here:
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Direct … timulation

Best,
AR


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Fractal
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

UPDATE:

With the helpful loan of some electrodes from Alex, I tested this out on myself. It's a good easy way to start experimenting with homemade n-hacking tech, much easier then building an NMS device!

I ran some tests on myself, however given that there was only one subject (me), a small number of trials and no blinding/placebos it wasn't a very scientifically rigorous experiment, and conclusions should be taken with a pinch of salt (as should electrode gel).

Subjectively it was a slightly strange experience and I seemed to see a few flashed of light as it messed with my vision, but for a moment I imagined that the flashes were lightning bolts between the electrodes!
Broadly I seemed to agree with the conclusions in the article I saw (which was far more scientific): placing the cathode on the right temple led to an improvement in visual memory but no measurable improvement in the ability to do mental arithmetic (although since I can do mental arithmetic anyway, this might not be a good test), while reversing the current reduced the ability to do mental arithmetic.

To test whether it has any effect along the lines of switching off the rear networks I tried to see what effect it had upon my ability to stand on one leg while balancing books on my head, which was the best test I could think of for N2's ability. Reassuringly, and slightly surprisingly, it didn't seem to have any effect upon my balance, so maybe its uses upon certain networks will not necessarily cause non-use in other networks.

Any ideas about how/whether to proceed? I'm currently wondering whether the same effect can be used to stimulate rear networks.

Fractal


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Fractal
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

Opps, double post.


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Alex
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

Hi dude,
Great work! This is what real science is all about; dudes building stuff in sheds and trying it out themselves  :  )

I am crap at (conscious) mental arithmetic so it may be useful to try the same test on me, next time you feel like a visit? (You could also find out what if any changes you are getting in vital signs; blood pressure, heart rate etc)

Rear networks: I would tend to target the reticular formation to see what happens, but this could be dodgy because you're interfering with your main input line and so you may not want to risk it. If you do, I'd start with tiny 'doses' and move up slowly from there. If that sounds too risky try short term stimulus ear-to-ear (just behind the ears) (you do run the risk of getting N3 instead, but you'll know if you made that mistake because your dreams will be ridiculous.) I did CES by this method once and in the middle of the night I woke myself up laughing.

There is one area of the spine that when stimulated improves rear net function but unfortunately (?) a side effect is it gives you orgasms.
Best,
AR


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Fractal
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

Hey Dude,

I would have replied earlier, but I must have missed the 'subscription subject reply' email, and so I thought no-one had replied.  Oh well. I'll check properly in future. Plus I've been preoccupied and busy, it'll be good to chill over the festive period, metaphorically speaking.

<quote>Great work! This is what real science is all about; dudes building stuff in sheds and trying it out themselves  :  ) </quote>

Next project: particle accelerator :P

Yes, trying it on more people is always a good idea.

I would be hesitant to experiment on the reticular formation, especially if no-one is supervising me. Temporarily messing up my ability to do mental arithmetic is one thing, messing up my basic homoeostatic mechanisms is quite another.

I'll try behind the ears. Having silly dreams in a risk I'm willing to take smile

In fact part of me quite likes the idea of targeting N3 with tDCS while taking hallucinogens...

<quote>There is one area of the spine that when stimulated improves rear net function but unfortunately (?) a side effect is it gives you orgasms.</quote>

Like the silly dreams, this may be a side affect I am willing to risk :D I seem to remember something about this, it's near the base of the spine, right?

Fractal


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Alex
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Re: Transcranial direct current stimulation

Fractal Wrote:

part of me quite likes the idea of targeting N3 with tDCS while taking hallucinogens...

...Never done that...light/sound feedback is pretty good tripping though. A lot would depend on the hallucinogen -I don't think I'd like to be on fly agarics & DCS...

[a]
There is one area of the spine that when stimulated improves rear net function but unfortunately (?) a side effect is it gives you orgasms.

[f]
Like the silly dreams, this may be a side affect I am willing to risk :D I seem to remember something about this, it's near the base of the spine, right? Fractal

Finding the right spot for you is something best experimented on when nobody else is around, because if you get it wrong you can accidentally pee yourself  LOL  :  )
Best,
AR


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